Montana State University

Associated Students of MSU Senate

SUB Room 235

November 8, 2018


Minutes called to order at 6:00pm by Pro Tempore, Ambika Murali.

Minutes recorded by Senate Secretary, Tiga Ward.

Roll Call

All Attending


Approval of Minutes

Motioned, Approved


Public Comment

Tracy Ellig, still taking public regarding the renaming. 6-mill levy vote, was passed by 63%, highest since 1998. Has a list of the organizations that contributed to the campaign, handing out the senators.


Zach Brown, represent campus district, and is here to introduce and to watch how the conceal carry goes. Looks forward to working with us. When he was a senior, went to MSU Bozeman, count him as an advocate, liaison, and to work as we work on our policy. As his point of view he thanks us for having the conceal carry debate here as it is appropriate. Is here for us.


Kyle Voightlander, need to focus on the snow removing. He thinks it should be better cleaned as it is hard to walk and is unsafe. The machine removes the snow but leaves the ice. Is bad for those that are capable but not for those that are disabled.


Nicholas Zetterberg, Letters and Science and engineering. Point one, if you need a gun to feel safe then there are larger issues at hand and should look to create a safer campus. Point2, increases the likelihood of someone dying and guns tend to intensify the situation. Point 3, conceal carry demographic is most likely is 18-19 and are highest risk for committing a crime. Not to mention these students are at high risk for stress and depression. It also creates an idea of authority and a sense of being the hero, but are most likely to be the target. Would like to make the point that most students don’t know about this. AGAINST.


Aaron Carpenter, engineering, is a conceal carry holder for 4 years. Facts: in order to process a person must complete a safety course, fingerprints in system, and background check. Renews every 4 years. 38,000 conceal carry citizens carry in Montana, roughly ¼ of the population. Why does campus need to be difference as it is everywhere. Should not be allowed in residents hall as it. In Montana there is an open carry policy and is more dangerous than conceal carry due to no training. Whereas concealed carriers are trained. Possible option, have a specific permit for MSU through MSU police, set as a zero tolerance policy. He carries everywhere he is allowed to and has never had to open fire or had it come out of his holster on its own. As a conceal carry hopes to never unholster his pistol but with current events would feel safer with it. FOR.


Bob Hippe, Business, in favor. Points there are emergency boxes around campus but the response time. The university of Utah, allows concealed carry and there have been no issues with the students acting accordingly. The permit requires vigorous training. In Gaines hall, it is an open building and could allow the shooter to affect more students. If conceal carry was around they could stop. The second amendment applies to every where in the US and is to give the people the right to protect themselves. FOR.


*McKade Mahlen, engineering, in his life he wants to give himself the greatest opportunity to survive. This is a crucial matter and many are unsure about the matter. Instead of outlawing we should look at it as an education point. We should pass it through, but should put our own restrictions on it so that we feel safe. Instead of criminalizing it, we should be educating about it. This will allow students to be well trained and to be able to handle the situation accordingly. The response time on campus is 3 minute, and as a EMT every second counts. A conceal carry could respond in seconds saving the majority of lives. Came from a small school and an individual came to the school with a gun but grew nevers as there where guns one campus. This could provide a deterrent and could be a safe hold. FOR.


Roman Olimon, Letters and at a range safety officer, we were trained and all grew up hunting. Has seen experience shooters make dumb choices. Feels we should make a higher restriction and have students that carry go through more training. In california there weren’t conceal carry and most areas of the state you wanted that extra protection. Criminals aren’t going to follow the laws to start and will still commit the crime regardless. Doesn’t like the idea of conceal carry on campus but must face reality and this is a real solution. FOR.


Daniel, Letters and Science, has experienced the loss of friends killed in an active shooter situation this morning. Every college campus has armed security guards and local police officers and yet shooters still kill. Brought a list of laws about concealed carry and a list of current (2018) active shooter situations. AGAINST.


Ash, Arts and Architecture, one of the issues of having concealed carry is the residents halls and their restrictions. It will create a huge issue for on campus residents. Either they will have to drop and pick it up or will be taking it to their rooms. One of the reasons mentioned in the resolutions mentions protecting women and carries pepper spray instead. Came to campus feeling safe and does not feel the need for a gun. AGAINST.


Monika Kwapisz, Engineering, oppose the conceal carry and that it is not considerate of those who are survivors of sexual assault. IS a survivor herself and finds this disgusting.


Unknown, Concealed carry will not immediately become active and would have more steps to go through. Race, gender, LBGTQ should not be brought up as it is about our second amendment. Is not putting guns in more hands, is just allowing those that have it to carry on campus. Conceal carry students are here to protect us not harm us and are trained. Has been in situations where there were warnings and signs about safety and to not be allowed. In these situations he wishes he had a gun. There are people in town with them. FOR.


Kelsay Jensen, Letters and Science, montana native and President of Queer straight alliance. 307 shootings that has happened this year. Growing up with guns does not make her feel safer. Her black belt makes her feel safer. Most of her friends do not support this and are in fear of this passing. Does not want it to pass. AGAINST.


Shamara, Engineering, listing shootings and numbers, the NRA wanted to force students to force students to allow conceal carry and that NRA is not on our side, especially after the 30 killed in the Georgia College shooting. The point of a good guy with a gun saving the people does not mean it will help as adrenaline can make them act rash due to lack of real training. AGAINST.


Elliot, Letters and Science, is in support of the resolution. He grew up in an environment were the law was important, and he wants to see us also uphold the law. A lot can happen in 3 minutes and a lot of lives are at risk in that time. The 2nd amendment was rewritten to allow all citizens to carry/own guns despite gender/race/etc. Listed various legal situation where citizens were given the right to carry. FOR.


Kurk, History Grad, representing the whole of the history of graduate association, opposes. Resident drafties pick their supporting data, where it shows that it makes little to no difference. This resolution is misleading, and there are better ways to prevent rape and sexual abuse. MSU under reported cases of sexual assault compared to universities of equal size. Increase in guns, increases the odds of deaths or suicides. AGAINST.


Dani Daley, Letters and Science, is asking to vote no. Wants us to collect more data that will allow for a better base work and better resolution. Doesn’t want professors to feel that this will affect students education. The top states our students come from do not allow students to carry on campus. Feels that more information is needed and that we should focus on stopping rates. The resolution does not include the impact it will have regarding suicides and feeling safe. AGAINST.


Stephen McNeal, Nursing, from N. Carolina and feels that a man that carries a gun thinks they feel respect but is or is it fear. Having guns on campus might make students feel that they can’t fully express themselves due to the idea of risk. Thinks it is an interesting idea that students feel the need to have a gun to feel safe and that should not be a suggested solution. AGAINST.


*Morgan Johnson, Engineering, in the end we want a safer campus for everyone. Thinks there a lot of reasons to want to carry a gun and if your carrying it due to fear then its for the wrong reasons. In response to safety, there's a difference between feeling safe and being safe, ie an airplane. We should get feedback from campus police and that we should have a campus permit that will allow student to have proper training to protect our campus. FOR.


Staff member, guns on campus affect staff. Wants to give another perspective. Should not want a weapon due to fear and . Top 7 state for death by gun. Other states allow concealed carry but 38 don’t. Feels we should have talked to campus support. There is no comment from campus police and it shows that most police campus are against concealed carry. AGAINST.


Mason Devries, Science Education, due to the climate we live in most minds won't be changed. What determines our perspective about this issue is our upbringing around guns. Those that grew up with guns feel safe and those that didn’t see them as a threat. THe fact that not everyone feels safer is an important thing to recognize. The thought of having conceal carried on campus makes students feel unsafe. Overall we want a safer campus, and along side of having a safe campus we should consider how safe students feel. AGAINST.


Alex Fetto, Letters and Science, is in favor. Wants to look at this as an extension of legal rights. What kind of message are we sending to adults that we don't trust them and that we don't support them exercising their rights. Is a survivor of sexual assault and knows that when faced with violence again that he has that right to protect himself and want that for others. FOR.


John Russell, Letters and Science, is in favor of this resolution. Acknowledges that this is not a cure all. The worst school massacre, was due to a bomb and the second was the Virginia Tech shooting, his point is that by allowing guns on campus does not prevent people from shootings. Feels that people should only carry a gun when thoroughly trained and in a situation would feel rushed and unsure if not properly trained. Has times where he feels unsafe leaving campus, and that if the situation arises that he is attacked that he is not defenseless. FOR.


Henry Burke, Engineering, that if we allowed students to carry and that it would deter students from states that don’t carry. Did not hear anything about questioning safety due to concealed carry when picking a school. Is from Colorado and they allow conceal carry. Does not mean that everyone will have a concealed carry, just gives the option to those that feels it is necessary. Wants all to have the right


Jason Lee, Engineering, from California, came here because he likes to go shooting and loves the outdoors. Has mass trained and is a concealed carry. Also has trained under martial arts. Has been attacked and survived, but a gun would have insured his survival as it was questionable, and should not have lived. In 1990, two students were shot and killed on MSU campus. It is not to protect ourselves during class, but to also protect ourselves while walking home or to our cars. There is only a 3 min response time one campus, and that is eternity when in the situation. When a task need to be done a tool makes the job easier as a gun is a tool. FOR.


Haley Cox, Letters and Science, is submitting her writing and from her college and their thoughts regarding assaults. AGAINST.


Terry Bradley, is submitting another students opinions. So our current senate speaker knew the rules and broke them or did so unknowingly. Asks the senate to look at the resolution and how it was pushed through. AGAINST.


Dana Kramer, Letter and Science and Engineering, submitted. AGAINST.


Marnie Manning, Engineering, is against. Concealed carry would be a huge financial burden, and other campus estimate that is would cost 1-2 million dollars to hirer security, additional training, and equipment. Some schools have estimated higher costs and feels we should not have concealed carry as our campus is safe. AGAINST.


Madison Kuehn, Education and Health, is the daughter of an officer cannot support this resolution. Is not against in the long run but feels that the current permit does not have high enough requirements. If you are prepared to draw a gun, you are preparing to shoot to kill. Guns statistically show that they tend to escalate a situation. Want to say she respects those that are conceal carried with high amounts of training but does not trust everyone to go through the same process. It is true that we depend on people with guns but those people are trained. AGAINST.


Konnor, Honors, this doesn't come down to constitutionality that is why it is not added. Has been studied for a long time, and all are inconclusive. If senators want to pass a resolution about safety and this is not is. Would support a proper resolution regarding safety. AGAINST.


Unknown, Alum of engineering, submitting a letter of a student who sent it to a senator. We are the ones that make the difference for current and future students and wants us to vote no.


Amara Reese-Hansell, Letters and Science, submitted letter. AGAINST.


Jamie Baird, Letters and Science, has never felt safe on campus and knows they are unsafe as they have received the threats. Has never wanted a gun or felt the need to have a gun to feel safe. Would not want to take the risk to hurting the innocents and does not want other to have the power. AGAINST.


Unknown, Letters and Science, is reading on behalf of a past/future student. Has been assaulted more than once by fellow students and has affected the ability to attend school. If conceal carry were allowed during those assaults she would have felt more threatened and at risk. AGAINST.


Lyla Brown, Letters and Science, urge those against. Campuses are relatively safe and 93% of instances happen of campus. Students are at risk for alcoholism due to high amounts of drinking and many more are at risk for suicide. AGAINST.


*Jamelle Phillips, Health and Human Development, underage drinking is an issue and consume over 4 drinks per day on average. There was a comment about race and that is insensitive. There are current events where it is shown that at times it is a race matter and that they are a target. She feels that MSU is a safe place and is safe for others. AGAINST.


*Tristen Harris-Pearce, Arts and Architecture, color and queer. Wanted to attend campus here because it is a safe environment. Feels it should not go through, to have a gun on you in an intense situation and would feel the need to use it. Fear makes people act different and respond erratically. 79% of students would not feel safe with concealed carry on campus and the women that survived did not own a gun. Has been intimidated by a gun and feels it would happen on campus despite being on campus and would then worry that everyone of campus would have a gun. AGAINST.


*Jacari Murphy, Business, the best way is from an objective standpoint. The concealed carry would not work with those in residence hall, 25% of our students. Students could lie and sneak the guns in and puts 25% of our students at risks. Would be impossible to integrate in residence hall. RA’s don’t feel comfortable with the students having firearms. AGAINST.


Karl Wilson, is international, and here to represent them. Does not feel it is not a constitutional matter but an academic matter. Non US citizen is not allowed to own a gun, and being international, knowing no one. It is hard to put that trust in police authority and would be much harder to put in unknown peers. AGAINST.


Noah, Finance Board, would like to challenge senators to acknowledge how their students feel as they are representing students. As representing the college of business would like to vote yes. FOR.


Mackenzie, Letters and Science, is against. Her dad carries. The presence of a gun changes the interactions in a classroom. People would not properly express themselves in fear of someone acting out. The idea that a gun would prevent rape, but more often or not rape is done by those close to the person. It is proven that a presence of a gun heightens a situation. At a shooting range was threatened by a range safety officer, and a concealed carrier, no good or bad guy. AGAINST.


Judith, Community, It is easy to get a concealed carry permit and has one. Is trained to shoot to kill and is a veteran cop. Has dealt with perps with guns and has never had to shoot anyone but it has been close. Law enforcement officers, have trouble shooting accurately when in a heightened and intense situation. Most times the “good guy” kills innocent by standards and/or gets shot themselves. Chief police have statistically stated that the best way to reduce gun violence is by preventing guns on campus. AGAINST.


Maya Perrier, Letters and Science, opposes the resolution and does not contain proper information, funding or training, resident halls. Needs to include more information to show what this policy would and should actually look like. AGAINST.


Haley Glassy, Letters and Science, opposes for many of the reasons stated today. AGAINST.


Ruthy, Health and Human Development, opposes and is thinking about the child care facilities on campus and that we need to consider them as well and their parents. Is not against people having concealed carry, but does not want to risk it to the accidents that could happen with them having their conceal carry on campus. AGAINST.


Listed names that are either an unknown comment or decided not to speak: Naomi Johnson (L&S, AGAINST), Helena Klein (Letters and Science, AGAINST), Matthew Bain (Agriculture, AGAINST), and Paige Driscoll (Engineering, AGAINST).


* Might not be the correct name for comment, but FOR/AGAINST and College are correct.



Unfinished Business


2018-R-21 Supporting Concealed Carry On The MSU Campus

Senator Swenson Motioned, Seconded.



Swenson, wants to admit honest mistake regarding the bylaws and there was a mistake on procedure and on their voting rights. This did go to supreme court and determined that it could go forward as long as he stepped down for the week. Spoke with Chief Parrish, and he is against it. Stated that in an active shooter situation  there is ~1 death every 11 seconds. Asked about other campuses that allow conceal carry, Parrish knows a police campus officer at Colorado state. Called and in 10 years there have been no issues. In regards to getting students opinions he thanks president Blossom for setting up a table and was out there talking to students. The results of the table were ~60% in support. He has heard how it could make MSU unsafe but feels it is not true. 12 states have allowed concealed carry, and most have no reported issues, some of these campuses have over 30,000 students. Understands concerns about the residence halls and thus Moves to amend lines 29 and 30.


Amend Lines 29,30 in regards to residence halls

Motioned, Seconded.


Killian, residence halls are on the campus and one cannot change the intent of the resolution. Chair agrees.


Appeal Chair

Swenson Moves to Appeal, Seconded.

Overruling Chair’s decision, the appeal fails.


Direct response to Appeal

Branch is in favor of amendment as it is not changing the intent.

Dalvit, if we're adding amendments then we need to update the whole resolution from 1992 to 2002.

Killian, residence halls are on campus and doesn’t understand why it is in question.

Swenson, is not changing the resolution but is adding a qualifier.

Hall, we need to update, rewrite and later present.

Branch, the motion is to appeal the decision.


Main Discussion Continued

Swenson, is disappointed in decision but wanted to compromise.


Halstad, to those affected by violence and sexual assault, thank you that is courageous. Is going to vote no, knowing that people are going to feel unsafe. Opposes, in support of students.


Hall, thanks for Branch’s clarification. Of the states allowing concealed carry, and that statement in the resolution is inaccurate. There are other inaccuracies related to the states. Guns are not a noted recommendation to prevent rape and that running and hiding was proven to be more successful. Would not want to present this resolution further until reevaluated.


Reiman, is voting no.


Killian, is against this resolution and knows that 11 senators are against unless there's a wild card. The one statistic included defeats the purpose of this resolution. Only one LGBTQ is for and no woman is in favor during this meeting. International students do not support as they can’t carry and do not feel safe trusting those unknown. Need to consider them as well.


Abbot, thankful of everyone that came out to speak. Is co-sponsor and wanted this resolution so that we could be here and to have this conversation to better hear the students voices. With that would like to remove her name as a co-sponsor. Last year chief police came to talk to us and that if an active shooter were on campus the police wouldn’t know who the shooter was and would make the situation unsafe more so than what it could be.


Lyon, our job is to voice the students opinions. Will be voting yes in majority of his students voices.


Gilbertson, after hearing public comment and his students voices he is voting against.


Dalvit, the majority of her college is against showing lack of communication in relation to the tabling event. To clarify she has a gun and grew up with them but does not want them on campus. Needs to acknowledge those that don’t feel safe and throwing statistics at them does not make them feel safe. Voting no.


Branch, 5 year veteran, has a concealed carry permit, is highly trained to carry a weapon and yet is opposed this resolution. He invites everyone in this room to change way safety feels on this campus. Secondly, be a friend to your friends. Let your friends know where to find or get safety. Inform those on how to stay safe. Once you take out campus housing the reason for this resolution fails as most of the crimes happen there. Need to find ways to make it safer without guns.


Mulvaney, spent close to 4 hours during the tabling events and had many good conservations. Those conversations can be very educational and informative. Took away that most of those that disagreed, were in support of having some form an advanced concealed carry permit. We should view this an educational opportunity. Appreciates the motion to amend the resolution but the document needs more work than what can be done tonight. Wants to be involved in the improvements, voting no.


Horton, Moves to previous Question, Seconded. Failed.


Reinhardt, thank you for those coming out and is a great environment to celebrate diversity and in conclusion. Is voting no. We inspire students to have thoughts and opinions, and doesn’t want to put a restraint to that due to those feeling unsafe because of concealed carriers.


Schmitz, is voting yes. Everyone he talked to in his college was for and only received one email against. Wonders how many actually check their emails as he knows that they received emails that were for this resolution. Doesn’t see what changes when allowed to carry everywhere else and then can’t on campus. Is still that same person and that doesn’t change due to location.


Johnson, is not comfortable with this passing due to security. Doesn’t feel this is the solution to this issue and is up to us to make a compromise regarding safety concerns. In addition to our students, there are many other people on campus and this would allow them to also carry at MSU. Is voting no.


Jurovich, feels that conceal carry is not necessary and will be voting no.


Abbott, wants to thank Karl Wilson as it is great to hear an international students opinion. Is against but it needs to be reevaluated.


Kothe, feels we need to work on a better way to get thoughts and opinions on this. We cannot say we have heard the whole of the student body as we have only heard from a small portion. Will be voting no as it does not address the root of the problem.


Pelkie, has an issue with the instructors having to face threats due to failing students and to having heated discussion.


Elias, move to previous discussion. Seconded. Passes.


Roll Call Vote 16 No, 4 yes, Fails.


5 minute recess motioned, Seconded. Passed


2018-R-17 Students Advocating for a Viable Earth (S.A.V.E) Resolution

Killian Moves to table indefinitely. Seconded.

Branch, moves to postpone indefinitely. Seconded. All in favor.


Admin Reports

President - Taylor Blossom

This is the most comprehensive outreach we’ve had. Thank you to those having the hard vote and to have that discussion. Regents next week and will not be present as well as Lizzy. Can the griz is at the Cat Griz event this weekend. A draft resolution will be sent out after the meeting, via email, for a fee increase. In the very early stages and will be voted on the 29th, any fee changes need to be in on the 30th. Requires a full student body vote, during spring elections.


Director of Operations - Marianne Brough

1hr and 53 mins of public comment, 81 people attended. Is proud of us all for doing the work we came here to do. She appreciated the attention and care that was put into hearing the students. Two things for tomorrow, wants to do a veteran’s appreciation, their vote was the party sub at 11:30am and we need to appreciate those that supported students by voting yes in the 6-Mill Levy.


Business Manager - Andy Turner

Is impressed by everyone's professionalism, will present the October financials next meeting. Whoever made coffee in the back room please clean it up.


Chief Justice - Mac Gwinner

Good job tonight and appreciates everyone's critical thought. The senate speaker sponsoring bills has been done in the past. Came to the conclusion, according to Robert’s rules that senate speaker is not a voting member and due to bylaws stating only voting members can sponsor resolution. Either step down for entirety of the resolution or get another to sponsor. Couldn’t co-sponsor either. Special committee meets Monday and are coming along. In next week or two hope to have a full election policy.


Senate Speaker Pro Tempore - Ambika Murali

Is very impressed with everyone and their support. Thanks for being supportive of her stepping up to the chair. Senator of the month in Senator Reinhardt. Employee of the month is Richard. Funding Board met and approved all. Finance board did not meet. Will be reaching out to program people to see what fees they feel need changes.


Senate Reports

Lyon, club sports priority deadline to join is changed. Can forward more information if wanted.


Halstad, met with student faculty relationship, sub ballroom B.


Swenson, budget oversight meeting next week. Thinks that is the most dialog seen in 2.5 years here and the process is good. Something we can build on in the future.


Hall, Health and wellbeing liaison, had less attendance than anticipated and got feedback. Last night was trivia night.


Murali, Senator/ Employee of the month must do a survey.


New Business


ADD 2018-R-22

Horton asks to be co-sponsor, Accepted by sponsor Grimsrud.

Motioned, All approve.


Senate Announcements

Branch, would like to recognize Senator Swenson, for taking on a hot topic.


Mulvaney, thanks Senator Murali for taking on chair on the most difficult night imaginable. Wants to encourage us to take on more tabling events to hear all students opinions and thoughts.


Johnson, ag weekend and hosting a harvest ball. Will be a costume contest. Ask for more details regarding events.


Hall, thanks to Swenson and Murali.


Dalvit, pat yourself on back.


Killian, been thinking over a couple years and was thinking about appealing fee for “free” sporting events. Blossom, would have to ask admin as it’s not in our jurisdiction.


Meeting adjourned by Senator Grimsrud.